96. [Sister Date] with Becca Johnston: Reflecting On Vulnerability, Therapy And Community After A Tegan And Sara Concert
She’s back! One of the most loved episodes (episode 72) from 2023 featured my one and only sister, Becca Johnston.
Today we’re chatting after our latest sister date at a Tegan and Sara concert (as part of their Not Tonight 2024 acoustic and storytelling tour).
We reflect on:
The cyclical nature of healing, creativity and concert tours
Creating intimacy and communities where you can show up as you are
Role modeling vulnerability
The gift (and honour) of witnessing others as they do the work to heal
In addition to being my brilliant and incredible sister, Becca is also a queer woman who works as a therapist supporting queer people of all ages.
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GET IN TOUCH
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Instagram: @meghanljohnston
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Episode Transcript
[00:00:00]
You're listening to episode 96. of With Heart and Wonder. And this episode, we are welcoming back my dear sister, Becca Johnston to the podcast. And Becca was on episode 72, [00:01:00] which ended up being one of the most loved episodes from 2023. We recorded it after we had gone to a talk by Elizabeth Gilbert. And it was a chance for us to reflect together and share those reflections with you.
It was so much fun to record. And so we decided to do something similar. And this episode, we're chatting about our latest sister date at a Tegan and Sara concert. Which was part of their "Not Tonight", 2024 acoustic and story telling tour. We're going to tell you all about it.
We reflect on in this episode. All sorts of incredible themes. Like the cyclical nature of healing, creativity, and concert tours. We talk about role modeling vulnerability and this gift in honor of witnessing others in these vulnerable spaces or as they do the work to heal. And also just about [00:02:00] the power of intimacy and communities where you can show up as you are. And it's kind of fun because just like in the Elizabeth Gilbert episode that we did episode 72, I'll link it in the show notes. Um, When we saw Elizabeth Gilbert talk, there was this really beautiful moment. That just stuck with us. And there was a similar one. At the concert, we are going to tell you all about it's one that I will be thinking about for a while. So we'll dive in in just a moment. you'll hear us talk about in the episode, my sister, Becca, in addition to being brilliant and an incredible sister. She is also a queer woman who is a therapist supporting queer people of all ages.
And so we do talk about. Vulnerability and therapy and community in this episode, it is so rich. And I can't wait to hear what you think.
Meghan: Welcome back to the podcast, Becca. I know it has been almost a year since [00:03:00] your last special appearance, which was one of the most loved episodes of 2023.
Becca: Am I your only ever repeat guest?
Meghan: Yes so far yeah so that's an honor that is an honor yeah
Becca: if anyone else ever comes on, I will need to come a third time, just to make sure that I'm keeping my record.
Meghan: Of course. So we thought we would do an episode today because we saw a magical concert last night with Teagan and Sarah.
And, like our last episode, which we did a debrief after we saw Elizabeth Gilbert, we thought it would be fun to do the same thing. And this one is like, even more fun in a way, because they're sisters, and we're sisters, and so it just feels, um, it just feels special, and also, I have just been feeling like sluggish, and I knew I still wanted to put out a podcast episode, but I was like, Oh, this would be so much more fun if I [00:04:00] did it with Becca.
so
Becca: Woo!
Meghan: yeah, well,this question, Of, you know, if we're going to do things, is there a way that we can do them in a way that feels more fun or more aligned or more easeful? And that is definitely what I was feeling like, Oh, it'll, it'll be just like, it feels so in flow just to get on and talk with you as opposed to, um, I think in part maybe because if you're listening to this in March 2024, I'm in the midst of launching my very first coaching based group program, and that feels really vulnerable in so many ways.
and there's something I think sweet and special that happens when we're doing things in collaboration rather than on our own that can take the edge off of that a little bit.
Becca: yeah, absolutely. Um, you know, making things with other people, uh, it just has a different energy.
Meghan: It does. It does. Yeah, it
Becca: that's part of, part of what we said after the concert last [00:05:00] night.
Meghan: I was thinking, it absolutely relates.
Becca: Okay. So first, should you explain the premise of the concert? Because I did not understand it.
Meghan: Yes, for sure.
Becca: And maybe still sort of don't. I loved it. I loved every second of it. But I feel like you should, uh, express a concept.
Meghan: Yes. Okay, so first off, Tegan and Zara, if you don't know who they are, they're kind of this like iconic indie band. from Canada which is where Becca and I live, and um, they're twins. So they grew up in Calgary, Alberta. They are both gay.
If you have ever watched the first season of Grey's Anatomy, you have heard their music. I'm pretty sure in the first season they have a song like in every episode. Um, and that was a huge turning point for them, but they've produced like 10, Albums and just are [00:06:00] just like wonderful human beings.
I feel like, you know how sometimes people in the U. S. will like be like, oh yes, Kirsten Bell is a national treasure. I feel like Teagan and Sarah are a national treasure.
Becca: are national treasure.
Meghan: yeah, I really, really feel that deeply. Um, they just won an award recently at the Junos, which is like The Canadian equivalent to the Grammys, for a humanitarian award based on their work with the Tegan and Sara Foundation, and just, like, incredible people, and they write music that is really filled with storytelling and because of like when I first connected to their music which was because of Grey's Anatomy as probably like a 14 year old in the early 2000s, um, I just feel like their music has like accompanied me through life in different ways.
Okay, but to get back to the the premise of the concert, so Back in October, I got [00:07:00] I'm pretty sure like a Facebook advertisement that the tickets were going to be going on pre sale and I was like, excellent targeting. This is absolutely the content that I want and I was super intrigued. So it was around the same time that at least For where we live there were tickets opening up for the Taylor Swift eras tour and I was like, oh, this is kind of interesting They're like doing their own Sort of spin on an eras tour but not so what they decided to do is they went back to one of their like First earliest albums, I think they're third actually, but it was like the one right before things started to really, really take off for them.
And, um, so this album, If It Was You, came out in like 2002. And they decided that they would do acoustic covers of the songs from that album because a lot of those songs never really got played at shows afterwards, like a few of them, but, [00:08:00] but not all of them.
And so just to kind of like bring those songs back, but to re imagine them and to bring them to life in a different way. But the way that they did this was by doing this like really small scale tour. I think there's like 14, 12 to 14 stops in Ontario. Um, and they're just going around kind of like rural towns as
Becca: Like, like, Milton, Kingston, even Ottawa, a lot of folks don't come to.
Meghan: it's true. It is true. I mean, we're not like a rural town, but,
Becca: No, but, but just in terms of like where bands come,
Meghan: true. It's very true. And they're playing theaters, so they're not playing like traditional concert venues. we saw them at a smaller theater. And so the idea behind the whole thing was like an intimate evening of storytelling where they were Reimagining their songs and also sharing stories about the songs and about their life and all of that sort of [00:09:00] thing.
Okay, so that is setting the stage. Did I do a good job?
Becca: you did a great job. Um, I will share with the podcast audience, I forgot this was the premise, so it was a small theater, it was a Tuesday night, and I was like, who did the booking? This is shameful. They should obviously be at a larger venue. Um, you know, more of an audience, more of a crowd, uh. And then, and then Megan helpfully was like, so, actually,
Meghan: This is the
Becca: not the premise.
And then once I got back on board with the premise, I was like, oh, right, they're redoing, like, songs from an album. I absolutely thought the album was the con. And it wasn't until,
Meghan: a way later album. Well, not way, but like a few years later.
Becca: yeah, and then, so then when they were like, okay, so the album title, I was like, wow, I really just came into this heart open, eyes wide.
Meghan: Yeah, yeah, but you had a wonderful time.
Becca: I had such a good time. Um, no, it was, it was such a lovely [00:10:00] night. Um, they're kind of known for their stage banter
Meghan: Mm hmm.
Becca: and for their back and forth. Uh, and so, like, that, as always, was a delight. I feel like part of what's really beautiful about their music is they talk a lot about, like, their longing for love and maybe, like, mistakes that they've made.
Um, and maybe even, like, Kind of like the thought patterns that we all have, but like, you know, you shouldn't have, uh, it's just seeing them actually like talk through them on stage. Uh, it was just, it was just neat. It, it had a level of vulnerability to it,
Meghan: That was the word I was thinking.
Becca: Yeah,
Meghan: Yeah, and I feel like that's something I've always felt in their music, is like a level of just, pouring your heart out. almost like leaving nothing back, you know? Um, and then that level of, like, intimacy and vulnerability. Um, so this is actually the fourth time I've [00:11:00] seen Deegan and Sarah over many years.
I think the last time was probably like 10 years ago, maybe slightly longer, but three of those times were with Becca. This one I feel like was like the most intimate for many reasons like two of the other times we saw them It was more like an outdoor venue, which is just a different vibe and there was a level that they were Intentionally like really intentionally crafting as well of like wanting you to feel almost like you were going behind the curtain or like, you know, like sitting in on a sound check or sitting in in like a living room session.
it was really beautifully crafted in that way. And I think it was, I was thinking about afterwards, the fact that like, I know this term has been thrown around a lot, um, at least in my world, I feel like probably in yours too, but this idea of like performative vulnerability, and I feel like there's something, like, of [00:12:00] course there's still vulnerability, In the online space, of course.
And there's something different about doing something online for like five seconds when there's not somebody actually in front of you and the difference between like singing with your body and all of your emotions and sharing the stories behind the songs that just, it felt, um, it felt like a privilege, like, and like very precious to be in that space.
Becca: Okay, it also, so like they're 43 now, and they definitely had a period of time of like, you know, punk rocking. I was reading their Wikipedia page last night, as I do when I want to reacquaint myself with people, um, and it was
Meghan: Before or after the concert?
Becca: oh, after, on my way home, I was like, what's their last name?
Meghan: Quinn!
Becca: anyone is, you know, like me.
Um, and I, it was talking about how when they first came out, they were described as light punk or [00:13:00] plunk. Um, and so I definitely think like, like listening to some of their older music, which I was listening to today, I was like, oh no, they're like rocking. Like, this is like. They're going for it, and they definitely can, but a part of it being acoustic, and a part of it being in a theater, I said to Meghan, I love a concert where you don't have to stand up,
Meghan: hmm.
Becca: and we did not have to stand up, and it was like, done by ten, it was like a concert for people with kids at home, like, Not that either of us have that, but, but just the, any audience, like the audience.
There were seniors, there were kids, there were like folks of all ages.
Meghan: It was really diverse.
Becca: yeah. And it was, it was just like such like a mellow vibe. Like no one had to try too hard.
Meghan: Mm hmm. Mm
Becca: as the audience didn't have to try too hard. They didn't have to try too hard. Um, and a part of that was like seeing them make mistakes.
Like, in one of the songs, they sped it up,
Meghan: Mm hmm.
Becca: you know, and at one [00:14:00] point Tegan just totally dropped out of the beat
Meghan: Mm hmm.
Becca: and started laughing. There were a couple times that, like, I think Sarah was, like, a little pitchy, but I actually loved it because it just felt, like, so real and together and there.
Meghan: And I feel like I don't know what you think about this But I feel like there's an element to that also of like having built a community And for people knowing what you're about over time and the way in which like people showing up at their shows have felt this like vulnerability. And I don't know, the word coming to mind is safety or comfort.
that might not resonate with everyone, but so that there is this like ability to just like show up, like you said, without having to try too hard and everyone just being there. that, that. level of a communal environment is not something that just exists out of the [00:15:00] gate, but it's something that has been created.
And, and I mean, like one of the things that I was just thinking so much about is just like the word that pops up, which is kind of funny because I feel like it can, it has been really commodified in different ways, but it's almost like this word of legacy. And especially with, this idea of going back to songs that were written, like, 25, 24 years ago and then, and then giving new life to those songs, but just that there's this element of just trust there in, in just being along for the ride and the journey and, and the creative process in a way.
Mm.
Becca: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I do think another part of it was like, um, them as people being, the queer representation of a lot of people's younger years. Um, like [00:16:00] them as two out women who, uh, like there weren't a lot of like out lesbians when I was growing up who were like cool and relevant.
and I think for a lot of folks in that room, like, Chicana Terror might have been the first time that they were like, I'm not gay.
There's just this, like, Way in which, just like we've grown with the songs, we've grown with them as people. Uh, and, you know, I know we talk about parasocial relationships sometimes as like, a problem,
Meghan: Yeah, but you should define, I mean, I know what parasocial relationship is, and I feel like some people listening might, but in case anyone doesn't, tell us what a parasocial relationship is, Becca is a counselor and so, you know, this is like her, her, her, her field. Tell us about a parasocial relationship.
Becca: Yeah, so I don't actually know Teagan and Sarah. We've never spoken, we've never hung out, we've never had dinner, we've never like done friend things. Um, but I feel like I know them.[00:17:00]
Meghan: Mhm,
Becca: And this can happen a lot with, for me it happens with podcasters.
Like there are podcasters, of podcasts who I've listened to for years that I have like a one sided relationship with. and there can be a way in which those relationships can be like harmful in that, uh, if the person in your mind isn't exactly what their public facing image can be.
or it can just be harmful because, like, in our post COVID world, like, so few people have actual connection. And so we're filling the gap with parasocial relationships.
Um, I think there's another way in which like, sometimes role modeling gets confused with parasocial relationships. And I think for Keegan and Sarah, a lot of it's role modeling. Um, that like, you can be successful.
Meghan: mhm,
Becca: be yourself. Um, you can, okay, this is somewhat of a departure, but something I was thinking a lot about driving home last night, [00:18:00] uh, was the idea that like, at no point in that concert were they like, hey, a lot of hard things are happening for the queer community right now.
Meghan: mhm,
Becca: And they did that at the Juno Awards. Like, they used that as a platform to talk about anti trans legislation. And like, that was a great time and place to do it. Um, and like, as a queer woman who works with queer youth, who are going through a lot, a lot of stuff, Um, I think a lot about what they're learning from queer adults. And, like, it's so important to be political and advocacy and all that, but also just having there be queer joy and queer community Like, the future I want young people to live in when they grow up is one, without having to constantly politicize themselves.
Meghan: mhm,
Becca: [00:19:00] And to be able to just like celebrate and enjoy things in community. And that's, like, they actually created that world last night.
Meghan: mhm.
Becca: Like, it was just people celebrating and being together. And even more than queer joy, it actually just felt like queer normalcy. You know, it was just like, yeah, this is just us, this is just our lives. And People gathering around that? I don't know. I was, I was like, damn, that's a beautiful thing.
Meghan: Yeah, I love that you shared that, and I feel like that's so potent, and I wonder too, just to add to your list of like, the shared experience, almost also like a shared experience of self reflection, in a way, in part because these songs are like bringing people back, like 10, 15, 20 years, and that was something that They [00:20:00] talked a little bit about which I thought was so special.
And, in a way our last episode was about, you know, Elizabeth Gilbert and creativity. And in a way this kind of ties into creativity too, but just this idea of like revisiting work that is. long since past and that work transporting you back to the time that you were in when you made that thing and what it means to revisit and be in relationship with it again.
Teagan was talking about like, like she's always recreating songs both in like how she is in relationship to the song, like how she approaches singing it, how she thinks about it, but then also in this case they were actually like changing the sound of, of, or, or maybe it's not changing the sound, it's really like almost like updating the sound to who they are now.
And I just feel like there's a lot there that I haven't unpacked [00:21:00] yet, but. I was just really grateful for the opportunity to witness this playful exploration and reinvention and reflection on this material. Because I feel like, I don't know, I feel like there's something really beautiful about that going back to and re engaging with things and making it new that we don't, like, that isn't something that is celebrated that much in our current society.
Becca: So what it makes me think of is, um, in, like, our Western capitalist, Individualist, societal framework, um, we think, see things as very linear. So you start in one place and you just, everything keeps getting better and better. You keep making more money.
Meghan: Yeah. We talk about this all the time on the podcast.
Becca: Yeah.
And it just keeps going, um, until you like reach your peak and any movement backwards is [00:22:00] bad and to be avoided. Um, even like looking back at yourself fondly, because you're supposed to constantly be learning and growing. But if we look at. different knowledges. So, um, especially in a lot of Indigenous cultures, life and learning is actually supposed to be circular.
Meghan: mm-Hmm?
Becca: And you are supposed to, like, revisit points in your life, um, in different ways with fresh eyes and with fresh experiences. Even in the tarot, um, the whole idea of tarot is that it's circular, um, and every time you meet a challenge or, like, a good thing. You get to do something different with it and that's how we grow
Meghan: Mm-Hmm.
Becca: And so just this idea of like our past isn't something to like throw out or try to run away from. And I experience this a lot with clients,
Meghan: I was gonna say. Yeah.
Becca: past coping mechanisms, or past mistakes they made, or choices, or whatever, um, and it's like, like one, that's how you got here, [00:23:00] so let's take a minute to like praise, and like send love to that younger self, and two, like what about that shows grit, creativity, a passion, something important, like what, what good can we take from it, To continue on your journey.
Meghan: Mm-Hmm.
Becca: And I think that's just something really beautiful to do with songs. Especially as storytelling, right? It's basically, it's like another draft.
Meghan: Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm. . Yeah. That cyclical ness. And, and I, I know that. Like that's something I have certainly felt in my own life, like if we use therapy as an example of being like, oh my gosh, I'm here again. Like, oh, there's that thought or that fear or whatever. Like I thought I dealt with that. And this expectation we have of ourselves especially with healing,of like one and done, but also with creativity of like, that you're going to get it right.
The first time or or that it that thing is static as opposed to treating the past not as static But as this thing that [00:24:00] also can evolve and I mean that's what all the research around memory says, right? Like when we revisit memories the memories themselves are changing. And so Yeah, there was just something so beautiful about That being named and explored and almost like invited into the space of this shared experience of re making things and that, that, I think there's something really liberatory about that around like, the idea of like, the thing can always be re explored and it just made me almost wonder like, what things have I left behind?
that are worth, picking up again and, playing with and, and seeing what's there with fresh eyes, like you said. Are
Becca: it's, um, One thing that made me think of is like, I imagine the process of touring a show or a concert. is in itself a cycle, right? Like every night, um, like something kind of funny [00:25:00] happened at our show where they did a song that they wanted the audience to clap along to. We were the percussion and so two of the people playing like bass and keyboard and guitar in the back kind of came to the front and sat down with some lights and showed us the clapping pattern and we all clapped along and at one point we started going way too fast and they had to slow it down and whatever.
And then afterwards, as just like a funny experimental bit, You know, Sarah walked up to the front row and was like, So I want to understand the type of person who would choose to sit in the front row, but then not clap. So I'm just going to ask some of you. It kind of went up to these two people and started to be like, Do you like us?
Are you mad?
Meghan: you having a good time?
Becca: yeah, asking those kind of doubt questions. And then, you know, it was like, which one of you is the Teigen and Sarah fan? How long have you been fans? And then finding out that these two people that she was kind of calling out, it was one of theirs, 40th birthday. [00:26:00] When this was her 40th birthday present, uh, Tegan immediately felt really bad and so went and oh, Sarah immediately felt bad and so went and started to like, basically just give them things off of the stage, uh, to, you know, make amends and at the end of the show Meg and I looked at each other and we were going to be like, that's the story.
Tomorrow night in Kingston they're going to be talking about this thing that happened in Ottawa. Um, and just even that building, like I think, yes. We can cycle with things from our past we've left behind, but even from like yesterday, even from an hour ago, there are things that we might like toss away or discard or want to move away from because it doesn't feel good. But like, is there something else we can do with that?
Meghan: hmm. Mm hmm. Yeah, another way we can look at it, explore it, even use it as, as to spark a new creation, that like process of, um, I mean, if we think [00:27:00] about, like, I talk a lot about On the podcast about like the cycle of the seasons and almost that idea of like, you know, like taking these things that have run their cycle, letting them compost and become new fertile ground.
And there's, like you said, these constant cycles and these cycles within cycles of like, there's the cycle of a tour, but also the cycle of a show, which you kind of pointed to. And yeah, cycles within cycles within cycles. And, um, and they were even trying, I think. to like let us into that a little bit. Um, it was really cool, the, the stage, they were sharing They wanted it to feel like the, like, physical representation of, like, the guts of the show.
Like, if you were opening up a human body and seeing,
Becca: think they said, they said what we normally try to hide.
Meghan: yes, exactly. Yeah, what we normally try to hide. And so the stage was actually, they just [00:28:00] had, all of the equipment that would be used to like move things around. and they built that into this really like minimalist, but effective stage. And at the very end in the last song, they actually had.
The, the crew disassembling the stage while they were singing and the lights slowly going on in the auditorium, like almost trying to bring us out of like, I feel like, uh, and I don't remember the right language for this, you might back up, but like, it's almost like that idea of like, breaking the, what is that thing called?
The third screen or? The fourth wall, breaking the fourth wall, but really it's always so beautiful when things like that happen because if we go back to the idea of vulnerability, like, it's, it's like the making people real. Which is the thing we talked about with Elizabeth Gilbert too in the last podcast episode, but like, like, real people, real boundaries, real things [00:29:00] that they're experiencing, and like, sure, there is like a performance and an aspect in which there is a feeling of intimacy, but there's also like a world outside of the stage.
Becca: Okay, so the thing it made me think of is one of my favorite essays I read for my master's. I cannot remember the author. the essay is, it's called A Crazed Essay and the author is reflecting on their queerness, their femininity, their mental illness, kind of all of it.
Um, and something that she says is that the metaphor for coming out never made a lot of sense to her because she always felt like her queerness was actually letting people in and when she shared her queerness with people it was inviting people into that world where there was so much more space and I mean if we if we think about it like a lot of music is and like vulnerability it is just letting people in and inviting them in To a world you might not have [00:30:00] imagined as possible.
A world where we can actually share our emotions and say the scary things. A world where they can show us the ugly back of the stage that no one's ever supposed to see. music in itself is showing your guts to the world. Um, I just said that, like, that whole concert, it was a letting in.
Um, and in that way, like, not to get super academic, but like, it was like the queering of a concert.
Meghan: Ooh,
Becca: Ooh!
Meghan: yeah, that's so interesting. I'm like, I need to read this essay now. you're so right. Well, and then, and then in terms of just like that letting in and vulnerability, we also got to witness what to me was a, like full body, like, oh, moment. Um, yeah. Do you want to, do you want to talk about that?
Becca: The therapy moment?
Meghan: Yeah.
Becca: Okay. Y'all, a joy to watch. So, at one point, [00:31:00] Tegan stayed on the stage and Sarah left. And it's, and this is, as a counsellor, like, so classic to see. Started with jokes, so started to be like, I stayed, Sarah left, because I love you more. Uh, it's gonna be hard, we're gonna get through this.
And then Tegan talked about, The first time she was ever on stage with Sarah because of like, a flight incident. And then Teagan said that, you know, she's 43 now and so she's doing a lot of work in therapy. Uh, of who is she without Sarah? You know, it's Teagan and Sarah. So who is she without her?
Meghan: Especially as twins,
Becca: as twins!
Yeah! And like, who is she like, outside of Sarah? The band. Uh, and so her, her therapist had said, well, why don't on this tour, you just try to sing a song by yourself without Sarah there? Uh, and so, you know, they did like single spotlight. She sung the song.
Tons of applause. It was cute. Sarah actually walked back on at the end, but we were still clapping. So then [00:32:00] Sarah walked off. So, so the applause could just be for Teagan and then walk back on. And I mean, I loved it for many reasons. Partially, um, everybody knows therapy is work. If you do it, you know.
But we don't often, like, show each other that work. So I loved watching that happen, and like having that be verbalized. Um, and then also I just, something that I've always loved is, um, watching people take up space and naming that that's what they're doing. Cause it lets you. Emotionally, just like get on the same level as them. And like that witnessing, um, I've been thinking a lot about just the importance of like witnessing.
Meghan: it felt like
Becca: yeah, ah,
Meghan: like, a privilege, but also like a gift to be able to [00:33:00] witness that.
Becca: yeah. And it's, you know, part of why vulnerability is, I think, one of the most powerful things, um, today is because when somebody is vulnerable, it gives the chance for other people to be vulnerable.
Meghan: Mm hmm.
Becca: And Many of the best moments of my life have come from vulnerability. From somebody else being vulnerable and me matching it, or me starting the vulnerability and other people matching it.
Um, I mean, any Brene Brown fans know this is her bread and butter. Um, but I think it is, like, such a powerful force and Lately, I've just, I, I think I finally found the word for how I feel when someone's being vulnerable, which is just honored.
Meghan: Mm hmm.
Becca: Like, I am just honored to hold that space with you.
Meghan: Mm hmm. Mm hmm. It's such a perfect word. yeah, I mean, I think [00:34:00] as, as I do, I'm still like processing it in my body, you know, but there was so, so much, Yeah. of a feeling of power and also hopefulness, I think. I think I've been feeling a lot lately like, like a really deep desire for more intimate connection in real life, like, like, like, out of online spaces. And especially, like, connection through ways that we are just witnessing, like you were saying, like, where it's the, just the power of that, um,
Becca: yeah,
Meghan: and it makes me think of, I think I told you about this, but, Obviously, listeners who don't know, um, I went to a really great talk, um, that was all about friendship and freedom.
And one of [00:35:00] the central questions that they were asking the hundreds of people there to reflect on is like, what would you do in your time? And what would your life look like If you didn't have to worry about, and they had a huge list, like everything from accessing healthcare to, food to housing, and just this idea of like, if all of your needs were cared for.
What would that create room for? And what are the things that you would be doing? And I feel like one of the limitations Many people feel to engaging with art, whether it's creating or witnessing is this like question of resources. And I say that there's a lot of other people. Who don't feel that limitation or who are taking actions, like, despite those [00:36:00] limitations with consequences and all those types of things.
So, it's not that that's like a universal experience because it's not, but, but just that there is this yearning to be together, but to be together in ways that are not. I think that feel meaningful and feel like they are really letting us stand and be seen in our wholeness and that part of that might require this sort of like creative exploration or artistic expression.
I don't mean that everybody has to like become a singer, but that there's something about, like, whether it's storytelling or dancing or, um, photos or meaning making that is like an inherently human thing, and that there's a different quality, maybe, to doing that in our community, like in the, the physical land where [00:37:00] we move and work and operate.
Becca: yeah. Yeah. I feel like I was reading somewhere recently. Um, I, like many other people, most of my friends are spread out. Across the country, very few live in the city that I live in anymore. Um, and I know we're all having trouble making adults as friends. I know because I'm a counselor.
And also just, you know, talking, talking with people. and you know, it's kind of funny, Megan, you were mentioning to me yesterday, uh, your association with hockey arenas is, um, vaccines and also, like, End of the world type scenarios where everyone has to gather at a hockey arena. Uh, and that neither of those are super calming, uh, things to think about.
But just that like, you know, if the world is gonna end, the people that we're gonna be spending our time with are the ones [00:38:00] beside us.
Meghan: Yeah,
Becca: Um, and even if the world doesn't end, most of our life is spent with the people beside us.
Meghan: mm hmm,
Becca: And so what would actually engaging with them look like?
Meghan: mmhmm. Well, and that was Okay, one more aside. And then I have something else I want to say at the concert to weave us back. But, um, that was one of the things that they were talking about. Um, so Desiree Attaway, who was one of the people leading this group, was talking about, like, specifically, how her grandmother.
who was on social assistance for her whole life, so she did not have a lot of money, but her and one of her neighbors would save and like put away money. throughout the whole year so that once a year they could feed the entire street and have everyone coming together because they deeply believed that that was a needed thing like that was like a social good [00:39:00] that was needed was this opportunity for everyone on the street to come together and that that was something that they could do was saved throughout the year and bring people together in this way and it just, yeah, oh gosh, it's like such a theme for me.
And I know it's something you've been thinking a lot too, but what does it mean to create community? And we could do a whole other episode on this, I feel like, but I wanted to say, because there's one other thing that like really popped out to me in this moment of like watching Tegan do her homework on stage.
singing it, rocking it, like, it was so beautiful. she sang it so beautifully. Um, but just really thinking about, for me, and I, I, I, I know that this is a thing that's almost like a universal experience, but we're always looking to other people and assuming that, like, at a certain, at a certain point in life, like, everything will have worked itself [00:40:00] out, and, or everything will be.
Not necessarily easy, but like, we'll have like, like we said at the beginning, to cycle, to circle back, to come full circle, like, like, we'll have, like, dealt with the things, and we'll be able to just, like, enjoy it, and it felt really powerful to me to watch somebody It Who I'm like, wow, you've had so much success.
You've created such a strong and empowering legacy that has deeply impacted people's lives. Like deeply, because they truly believe their music has saved people's lives. Just like Andrea Gibson's poetry has saved people's lives. Like I, I believe that with my whole depth and, and to still be sitting in therapy and asking questions like, who am I?
Like, what am I even doing in the world? do I even matter? to be asking those types of questions when I'm like, oh my gosh, yes, you've done so much work. And then it can be this reminder because I think I've been really struggling with [00:41:00] purpose and what I do in the world.
And just to, to remind ourselves that like, oh my gosh, there's so many people who are still, who are still grappling with their own contributions. Mm hmm.
Becca: Absolutely. Yes. Powerful to see that. The other thing that I thought was really beautiful to see modeled was, when Sarah came back on stage, Sarah was like, Yeah, honestly, I don't have the same problem as Teagan. do not have this issue. You know, Teagan asked if I wanted to do a song by myself, and I was like, nah, I'm good.
But I love that now, I spent 25 years not being able to go to the bathroom during a show, and now I get to midway through. Which, like, I love. Respect. Um, but just to see modeled, um, we don't always have to get it
Meghan: Yeah.
Becca: or we don't always have to have had the same feeling or have had the same, to make the same choice.
Meghan: [00:42:00] I thought that that was really important to see.
Becca: if we look at like, being with people on their healing journeys, It's just making space for them and doing what they ask of us.
Meghan: hmm.
Becca: And even though it's the hardest thing in the world, step by step wise, it's actually very easy.
Meghan: Yeah. Yeah, I love that you brought it back to this idea of modeling. And I feel like this theme of like vulnerability, this is not where I thought our conversation was going to go, actually. Like, I knew that we were going to talk about some of these things. Um, I think I thought, which, you know, for another time, we'll lean into like sister creativity you know, because that's like a whole other dynamic.
But I feel like what we did talk about feels important and feels like exactly the conversation that needs to be shared today.
Becca: Absolutely.
Meghan: Well, thank you so much, Becca. This was fun as always, and it [00:43:00] definitely made recording a podcast episode today way more fun. And enriching, I think in the way that whenever we're in community with someone else and in like creative collaboration with someone else, it just opens pathways that we couldn't have ever expected or predicted.
Um, and it's so generative and life giving in that way. So, thanks.
Becca: thank you for having me. I can't wait for when I come back in a year after another thing we've done.
Meghan: Yeah, yeah, stay tuned.
Thank you so much for tuning in today for this episode. It's conversation with Becca and I was so special to record and it, it feels to me like such an honor any time that you tune in and listen to an episode.
And I know that as a community, as we explore these themes of heart and wonder to gather that we are creating ripples outward.. Now before you go today, one more [00:44:00] thing. Every year around this time we are coming up on my birthday season. My birthday is April 9th, 1990. If you're curious. But every, every year, around my birthday
I ask if you want to celebrate alongside me another year around the sun. Um, it would mean the world if you took a few moments to rate, review, or subscribe to the show. These three ways are how podcasts grow and how they stay sustainable. And so if you have a moment to. Rate review or subscribe.
All of those things help so much in terms of helping other people find the show and helping the show stay active and thriving. And if you already have done any, or all of those things, like the biggest, thank you from my heart to yours.
Until next time, keep living With Heart and Wonder. [00:45:00]